12.16
Ah the combat tree, how I love you. From my days as a silly dagger rogue (I still love backstab and would love to see Combat Daggers be viable…a man can dream can’t he?) to the current days in the icy north I’ve been spec’d some variety of combat. While Mutilates may be the cool new guy on the block with his slick hair cut, fancy shoes and brooding attitude that makes all the ladies swoon, I am -for the time being- going to dance with who brought me and that’s the rush of Combat.
The Specs
Here are the current combat specs laid out by elitist jerks.
- Combat Swords
- Combat Fists – Combat Fist/Dagger
- Combat Fist/Sword
I’ve been seeing a lot of rogues using the 7/51/13 builds but personally I prefer the 15/51/5. I find that ruthlessness and lethality are just too good to pass up. Experiment and find out which one rubs you the right way.
At this point I’d like to mention that do to the changes to windfury and the current itemization of swords (the best mainhand available currently drops off of Naxx-25 trash), the sword/sword build is currently one of the weakest available. Currently the strongest weapon setup available is to main hand: Calamity’s Grasp and offhand: Webbed Death. Of course, this is simply based off current itemization and could will change when new items are introduced, for now, my best advice is to spec for the best weapons you currently have.
The Rotation
First off, pop tricks of the trade a few seconds before the pull. This will allow you to immediately begin burst damage on the boss.
If you happen to be in stealth lead off with Garrote. Personally, I rarely find myself starting a boss fight in stealth. The time lost moving to the boss just doesn’t seem worth it in my opinion.
Once you’ve begun attacking the boss, cast Bladeflurry (skip this step if there are other targets around that you shouldn’t be hitting) and then Adrenaline Rush. The ordering here is important, if you start with AR you’re wasting the 1.0 seconds from the GCD (global cooldown). Let me try to explain that a little better. Bladeflurry costs energy, AR does not. If you lead with AR you will be at full energy for the 1.0 seconds before you can do anything else, wasting the increased regeneration from AR for that time.
Next, Sinister Strike and then Slice and Dice.
Now, Sinister Strike up to 5 combo points.
Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If so, Rupture, otherwise Slice and Dice.
Sinister Strike up to 5 combo points.
Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? Eviscerate or Envenom.
Repeat until the boss is dead.
Kick the boss for good measure.
Basically, just like in BC you need to make sure that Slice and Dice never drops. Your next priority is Rupture and after that you can sneak in an Eviscerate or an Envenom.
A good rule of thumb is to always Sinister Strike up to 5 combo points. If Slice and Dice has <12 seconds remaining, renew it. If Slice and Dice has >12 seconds and Rupture is not up (or only have 1 or 2 seconds remaining), reapply Rupture. If you’re set with both Slice and Dice and Rupture use the big E of your choice.
Hot Tip: If you find yourself very low on energy due to some bad luck with Combat Potency, try using Killing Spree for some extra DPS while you regen.
So, is anyone still Combat out there?
I am glad to see, I am spec closely the same. Except my specilization is in maces, because its the best weapons I have right now. What glyphs are you using?
My rotation is just about the same, however I find myself slice in dicing at 3 comobo pnts, and being able to build up 5 more, use a finishing move, and still build up 3 to refresh slice in dice again before it expires.
I do have the glyph of Slice in Dice, as well as Glyph of Blade Flurry, and Glyph of AR… Should I be using a different glyph?
@Dosequis
I’m planning a post on the major glyphs soon but my opinion is that you should be using the Glyph of Slice in Dice, the Glyph of Rupture and the Glyph of Sinister Strike(This is the most important for a combat rogue! Get it ASAP).
Good to see that there are so many that still love the combat rogue. I have been Mut. a while, workes fine, but i just did not like it (rotation is too complicated to maintain for me)
To answer the question, YES, still combat rogues out there!
Using the 15/51/5 build with 2 swords (good swords are hard to find!)
Yea, I agree, that mutilate is the stronger spec… I know comabt is such a nub easy to play… However I can play sub just fine, with alot more button pushing then you have to in combat…
Mutilate, is just one of those rotations that if you fuck up just once, your DPS drasticly suffers… I may try it again, but for now my raiding guild doesnt need someone trying to learn a spec…
First of all, thanks for a great post. It includes both the builds and rotations – most important things that need to be refreshed in Wrath.
I have some questions though:
What do you think about Backstab? Are there times when it is worth using more than anything else? (Assuming, of course, that you’re in a party and behind the mob almost all the time.)
And other thing, you said about using KS when low on energy, that’s truly makes sence. (I also try to use it when SnD just ran off, to not waste the increased speed for smth that has constant speed.)
But what do you think is best to use in the contrary situation – to drop some “extra” energy when you, say, pooling the energy at the last moments before SnD or Rupture fades away?
I currently use either Backstab to add last combo point (cause it costs more than Sinister Strike) or Fan of Knives when I already have all 5 CPs and it’s appropriate to use this ability (it deals a nice damage anyway).
Forgot to say that I’m dagger-specced, so with Patch 3.0.8 damage dealt with Fan of Knives will be even nicer…
@nordveien
Glad you found the post useful!
Backstab is a touchy subject with me. For one, I love the idea of it, as an old school D&D player I believe that backstab is what rogue’s should be doing. One problem though, a combat rogue should never be using a dagger in their main hand. The only rogues that should have a dagger in their main hand are Mutilate and HAT rogues which will be using their spam of choice(mutilate or hemo respectively) rather than backstab.
As far as what to do with extra energy. Generally if you have enough time on SnD and Rupture and 5 combo points, I think it’s time to throw an Eviscerate. If you don’t feel you have enough time then go ahead an refresh SnD, it’s better to “waste” 2 or 3 seconds of SnD and get back to your Sinister Strike spam.
@nord
I love that you’re Dagger-spec’d. It’s sad that it’s not really viable as a combat build (I believe this is due to the energy cost of backstab overall)
But since you are dagger spec’d, you should be using backstab in place of Sinister Strike
Thanks for the answer!
Well, I made a gross mistake forgetting that Backstab can only be used with a dagger in the main hand %) So, remembering it, certainly, clears things up…
As for daggers in both hands – I’m on my way to MH Fist/OH Dagger as described here http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-t7_25_rogue_gear_discussion/
Just didn’t thought it through that much when was picking lvl 80 starting weapons. Thanks again for explaining things to a lame guy
If your dagger spec’d you might as well roll Mutilate.. Akrios from Roguerogue.com – wrote a very informational blog post, and even created a video of the mutilate dps rotation, and how to play it. Check it out at:
http://roguerogue.com/?p=78
Zaltu – not trying to take anyone away from your site, just trying to share the info
Im actually subscribed to your site on RSS, because I enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks Dosequis, nice resource!
As for Mutilate – I’m not a fan of the whole idea of using poisons as a finisher… So, I’d prefer staying in combat tab and finding a decent Fist Weapon.
But the video you suggested is really good. Hope there will appear more of those, for other specs too.
With mutilate, you do not have to use Envenom, if you don’t want to you can change the spec around and use Eviserate as a finisher, just spec into it. However the reason why people are using envenom as a finisher in mutilate, because spec’d the way we are with posions, it honestly does do much more damage. Eviserate really needed to be boosted by Blizzard in order for it be equal to what envenom is doing.
Spec’d into Evisterate, I would see crits, as high as 6k-7k. Spec’d into envenom, I am seeing crits, at 8k-9k. Which is a drastic difference over evisterate… I know, pre lich king, no one used envenom, I know I didn’t. Keep in mind the tooltip info that you are reading on Envenom is incorrect right now too.
Hey guys, love the site! Heard from a friend on some podcast actually…well I rolled sub (tri-wield with stance-set switcher) for the longest time. Dagger swap to main hand for ambushes but recently was mut for awhile…absolutely loved it. Anycase, combat was the only spec I haven’t used so I went this way and actually took some advice from a friend to use backstab. I have webbed death and titansteel shanker atm. I did descent dps 2100+ in gundrak last night but am wondering if I get instinctively good at combat will it top my mut build dps? Is backstab really not viable? When I say that…I”m not asking for opinions I’m asking for statistics…facts. Can you really not out dps a mut rogue with backstab combat?
Anycase, last thing….sub is where my heart is and would love to try out HaT again with the knowledge of doing the other specs….I feel I could either out dps my mut spec or get damn close with this….anybody have any ideas or feelings on this? Is there any *official* tests anywhere putting all three specs against eachother in raiding tests…..O yea one last question =D If I do roll sub again…is backstab viable now? or stay hemo and use mace/sword in main hand or stay dagger x2 Have fun with all my questions hehe good luck all!!
Happy Killing,
Paramourn – Firetree 14/51/6
lol im the exact same spec on my rogue.. im new to this spec i just came from Sub. i was a pvping rogue but then my guild needed me more for Raids and i was googling good spell rotations. This helps ALOT and ty
Ive been playing a rouge for about 2 months and got to 80 doing 2k dps as combat in heroics =o but whenever i do heroic naxx or just sit in dalaran some rogue that thinks there better then every other player is all like .. Yo youre not mutilate spec ! and start telling me im stupid and should repec to asas .. idk .. i like combat .. but are they right to judge me =/ witch realy does more dps if you got the solid gear and rotation Mutilate or combat ?
Your rotation is genius, thank you!
“I’ve been seeing a lot of rogues using the 7/51/13 builds but personally I prefer the 5/51/15. I find that ruthlessness and lethality are just too good to pass up. Experiment and find out which one rubs you the right way”
I assume that you mean 15/51/5 spec instead of 5/51/15?
Good stuff btw..
This is a great read I am going to bookmark your site.
I recently specced back to combat myself – 15-51-5 spec with dual swords (rep reward blue swords for now till better ones drop). I was mutilate and switching over to combat spec, while I love mutilate, damned if it didn’t get me 300-500 more DPS. Plus Killing Spree is just awesome.
I hate that I had to switch to Combat to up my DPS in Raids, but it seems to be more fun than it was in BC.
First off your spec should be 15/51/5
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?tal=00532010400000000000000000002520520002050152231005012515000000000000000000000000000
Make sure to move one point from lethality to vigor
Do this because you can get the vigor glyph increasing your energy by not 10 but 20.
Lethality in itself is not necessarily a valuable talent (at least not as vauluable as increasing energy regeneration rate by increasing total energy by getting vigor and the glyph) when going combat because its all about white damage not just sinister strike.
(Sinister Strike should be the only combo move that you will actually crit on because of the rotation you should be using)
The glyphs you should aim for are
Improved Rupture
Improved Sinister Strike
and the Vigor glyph.
Your rotation should be
Sinister Strikex5 (exceptions should be made if your glyph causes you to generate more than one combo point from critical strike)in order to get 5 points
Then slice and dice.
Keep spamming sinister strike then rupture.
Keep spamming sinster strike then eviscerate.
(Rinse and repeat entire rotation)
This is all for a boss target and only possible under certain conditions but its not hard to achieve this rotation
I’m combat. I was doing more dmg as assass, but I like combat, and it’s getting a big buff here in 3.1
I actually thought assass was easier, as it was easier to keep 100% snd, and near 100% rupture up. My issue with combat is that a lot of the time I find SnD and rupture wearing off at the same time.
So I’m trying to play with how many points I get before SnD. I usually start with 2 or 3, then after that I always SS up to 5 points unless SnD is about to drop.
Oh, and I disagree with the guy about vigor. Vigor only matters your very first rotation, after that your energy should not be capping anyway.
Someone was asking about HaT above. HaT is the best dmg in 25 mans, if your raid will stack your group with hunters and such.
Right now combat backstab is not viable compared to other specs.
K i have a question i currently have mace MH Sword OH would this combo work for Combat PVE??
@Lahstat it really depends on the weapons. Is the mace slower than 2.4? Is the sword faster than 1.6?
If these are the best weapons you have then go for it, but do your best to gather up some of the better ones.
Check out my Gearing Your Rogue Pre-Raid guide for more info
Can any of those Rotations be made into a macro? If so, how do you do that?
HEll yeah combat is the way to go. If u start it at a low lvl and get good your can become pretty bad ass and stub rouges cant touch you. : ) (Fist weps look way too cool)
oo and they are getting buffed in the patch today if blizz ever lets me back on…..
Nice post, this site was exactly what I needed. Thanks for all your posts, I have gained more rogue knowledge. My raiding spec was mutilate but I seemed to be failing at it. I know hit rating is significant, but how much hit? Anyway, at one point I was doing 2100 dps in VoA 25, but then I dropped to the low 1000′s. My dps is not stable so I thought maybe going 15/51/5- fist/sword would give me more dps. I was using the dagger from HoS, fleshrapper? something like that… and titanium shanker. When I changed to combat, I got the fist weapon from KT and Heartstrike. Can someone tell me if I should change my offhand to dagger for better dps? Also…I read somewhere that if I fuck up a rotation as mutilate, I’m pretty much fucked it all up. Is this true?
—EDIT—
I forgot to ask a question that was probably already answered, but i need confirmation. I’, 3/5 T7.5 but I have low hit….293 with 3 pieces of t7.5 or 344 with a blue chest piece that has a lot of hit. I figure since I already have 3 pieces, I will have the bonus. Now…sitting at 3k AP and potentially 344 hit, is mutilate pve a stronger dps than combat fist/sword?
I find myself now pulling 3-5k dps in 5-10 mans and something has occurred to me. Rupture isn’t needed.
I liked your builds and your rotation they are pretty standardized actually but in a good way.
Rotation that i use on bosses.
Trix at start. (keep this up on either tank or if there is again melee dps and tank has good aggro throw it on him giving out dps isn’t a bad thing at all…[Note even better if it's another rogue coordinate those bad boys on eachother cancels out aggro and lets you both do more damage])
Attack and BladeF. Gather Up to 5 CB for SnD.
AR –> 4-5 Evis x2-3 (You should be able to get out atleast 3)
Is there still 12 secs on SnD? If not 5 to SnD.
If there is KS for Energy then 5 to SnD.
Rinse and Repeat. with KS at a 2 min CD and AR at a 3 min you can bust out 2-3 KS (Rogue Evocation with DAM!!!!) and 1-2 AR.
Keep in mind that i am a Combat Daggers (2x Webbed Death [MH Mongoose OH Beserking])
I’ve always been combat started playing short after south park episode right before tbc was released.
I don’t understand why I don’t see any rogue and I mean any rogue accept myself who uses 18/51/2 especially when you’re aiming at always using 5cp you won’t need 5tp in relentless strikes for it to proc. And everytime it does proc all the extra poison damage is pure profit. There are other benefits to this spec.. Think of all the times you have to run out.. Don’t you love leaving a 5 stacked deadly poison behind with 30% more damage? 18/51/2 is especially good for targets who go down fast and you need to be a little bit lucky with the relentless strikes but in my experience I gain more dps with this spec. I don’t like the classic 15/51/5.. Cause everytime I I finish with 3cp and I don’t get energy from relentless strikes.. I feel like I wanna go back to 18/51.2 asap. I switched back and forth many times with many different gear levels and I’m convinced it is the better spec overall. Poison damage total is more then sinister strike damage. Think about it. Try it out.
Also I got a question.. If you got full T8 will snd still have priority over rupture cycle wise?
Tnx
@Darqmuse
The 18/51/2 vs 15/51/5 has been debated and testing to no end over on ElitistJerks. The general consensus is that they are very close until you start to end up with more BiS gear from Ulduar wherein the 18/51/2 spec doesn’t scale as well. Spreadsheets and play testing confirm this. That said, play whatever spec makes you happy.
SnD will always, always, always have priority over everything else in your cycle. 40% haste? Can’t live without it.
Thx rly helped my dps
This spec really helped boost my dps to something more consistent overall than with mut spec. that, and I really only need to hit 4 buttons and do next to no work. this rotation makes me feel like a huntard. thanks, and just one question, how should I be poisoning with this spec now that poisons are ppm?
Well I’ve tried this rotation and it isn’t really working good enough :/ I think that I’ve got better one. When you start fighting boss sinister strike twice, slice and dice, trinket and adrenaline rush. Sinister spam up to 5 combo points and then if mongoose/berserking and trinket procs rupture and if not then eviscerate/evnenom. Sinister spam up to 5 combo points again and then rupture. After CDs and trinket are over then slice and dice mustn’t drop off and just spam sinister up to 5 combo points and then eviscerate/envenom or rupture. It seems to be better rotation for me. Anyways, your specs and rotation is also very good, just mine rotation is better in my opinion.
greetings. great strategy here. i just respecced to combat. after working on the dummies in stormwind i pose a few questions to clear up my new build based one what you have posted on this site.
1. Im having trouble keeping up full SND and RUPTURE. i noticed someone posted about skipping rupture and instead getting in 2-3 eviscerates. is this a viable option?
2. im sitting at 500 hit rating. my aim is to get 800 or so after ulduar. is this also a realistic goal?
3. do you have a comparison of hit rating vs. attack power? im sitting around 2750 attack power unbuffed.
Thanks for the great advice. I have always enjoyed playing my rogue. I have always been more of novice. Thanks for both spec and glyphs. Some of the rogues on my server aren’t forthcoming with advice. Gotta have fun but do some decent dps at the same time. Some simple things that you put in your data will help tremendously. Thanks!
Why don’t you spec into Lightning reflexes in Combat?
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to piks.
I dont know what kinda gear u got but i got as a combat rogue with mostly epic gear 3k ap UB not fully enchanted.
Also 500 hit? really i got 350 and i got 5k dps in 25 man encounters drop hit go for AP and crit.
cheers
Hello I love your page here very informative. I never played a rogue and began one just to test it and soon forgot all my other chars. I love the rogue class and am having great fun with it. My question to you is this…
What is the best rotation to use for a lowbie
and weapon setup for a combat rogue. I noticed not many good weapon readily avail at this point. I have been using 2 daggers always coated with poison and love backstab. Here I read that 2 swords is preferable. Any help guiding a young rogue would be much appreciated.
26 Nightelf rogue Combat spec with 3/3 stealth
For leveling, weapons matter, but only slightly. I myself am combat swords (18/51/2), but I’d LOVE a decent fist MH… Anyway, back to your question, Sword/Dagger would most likely be your weapon combination of choice, for your level. A slow Main Hand (2.2 or higher) and a fast Off Hand (1.6 or lower) would do a decent amount of damage. The issue with leveling is that you kill monsters too fast for most weapon choices to make a difference.
As for rotation, sort of the same idea, you want to try and keep slice and dice up, while Sinister Striking your heart out. You also want to use Eviscerate, because again, you’ll be killing monsters too fast for rotation to have a significant impact. I suppose a decent leveling rotation for a sword/dagger rogue would be Cheap Shot–>Slice and Dice–>Sinister Strike x5–> Eviscerate. The monster should be dead by then, and if not, rinse and repeat.
As for the talent spread, as long as you have 2 in improved Sinister Strike, 5 in the Offhand talent, and 2 in Slice and Dice, you should be decent for leveling.
What should our dps be assuming we do everything right? And I use a 0/51/20 spec. Not really all that different except I have ghostly strike too.
Dagger/sword or fist sword is imo a bad choise, since you have to waste more talentpoints to get the best out of both..i use fist/dagger and i have to fill up only the close combat talent.
what do you guys think of using envenom instead of eviscrate..im not sure yet
Great website you got here alot of usefull information.
Lets get to the point…
Why should you skip the rupture for a eviscrate?
It’s better in my opinion to keep the rupture up because of the damage per second.
If you’re low on energy rating and got KS on CD are you still keeping the damage up with rupture, because if you don’t get all these combo points for eviscrate instead you wont make the same amount of damage per second.
I’m using eviscrate instead of envenom because then i can keep my 5 stacks of deadly poison up intead of wasting the poison wich is independant for maxing out your dps.
I feel that it’s a waste of using the 5 stacks of deadly poison for like 500 more damage for 1 hit, it takes time to get those 5 stacks back and in the end i bet that using eviscrate wins.
Remember that deadly poison also makes damage per second.
Thanks!
OMG i use the exact same rotation i made it myself! nice man!
hey nice post
Garrote come handy because we put SnD with one combo point, and then we are allowed to use BF plus AR and able to Rupture, refresh SnD and still give the Boss a big E.
I know thats difficult start with Garrote, because we loose time reaching the boss. So try Stealth – ToT – Sprint – Garrote!
We reach the boss first than tank lol
Cumps
Nice write up….
Ive got good gear all socketed and enchanted , 3 end game L245 and rest all 226+ and yet my rogue combat spec sucks balls on DPS still. 3500AP, 35% crit…and my combat tree is how it should be. I use sword and axe. Anyways ill try the above rotations in a toc5man tomorrow and see how i go.
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hi changed my spec to this and helped me a lot i use fist weapon and dagger go’s a long way still haveing a play with my rotation tho…thx
What would be the poison to use to make more damage
i get tears on my eys when i hear people sayin that combat the way is to go as a rogue
, i ven been since day 1 combat rogue, i will never switch to another tree or another class. once a combat rogue, always combat rogue. killing spree is just a blessing.
Thanks for the info. I just got my rogue to 70 and I had only really just killed creatures such as quest mobs never really being able to run through instances and figure out what needed to be done to kill the boss. Like if i should just stay behind the mobs and spam backstab or stay behind use blade fury and AR and just go nuts. Im also happy that i have been specking my rogue properly and not being a re re about it and just going “OH LOOK SHINY!”
Again thanks for the info it helps alot =)