01.13
How’s that for a loaded question? I posed this very question to my guild’s rogue channel last night. I didn’t want to start a QQ fest so I added, “do you, really, really, deep down in your little stabbity heart think that Rogues are broken?”.
No direct answer came. Shouts of “We don’t do enough DPS” came from all about. We bring no utility, only damage and therefore we should do the top (or at least very close to top) damage. This is a valid argument, and one that I agree with. Why bring a Rogue when you can bring a kitty who will do just as much damage and can off-heal in a pinch? But does this make us broken? Are we doing too little DPS or are the other classes doing too much? That’s the million dollar gold question here ladies and gentlemen. Are we under balanced or are they overbalanced? I suppose that there’s not really a right answer to that question but I lean toward the former. A lot of guilds have ripped right through the current content and while there is certainly a strong argument that the content is easier that ever (and I believe it is), I don’t believe it is fair to overlook the fact that maybe part of the reasons it is so much easier is that most classes are doing too much DPS.
It is with that mindset that I am going to approach this issue.
So, are Rogues broken?
In my humble(ish) opinion: Short answer: No; Long answer: Yeah, kinda.
I posit that what is “broken” about us, my stabby brethren, is not that we don’t do enough DPS but rather some of the mechanics of our DPS, namely, Poisons. In Wrath, poisons now scale with attack power. This is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. Poisons have become a large part of our DPS and I’ll state firmly for the record that I have absolutely no problem with that, in fact, I love it. With that said, allow me to introduce you to something:
The Librarian’s Paper Cutter (LPC).
The LPC is a BoE (bind on equip) random drop from trash in the Halls of Lightning. OK, great, what about it? I’m glad you asked. Before Naxx-25, the LPC is currently the best main and offhand for Mutilate and HAT (Honor Among Thieves) rogues and the best offhand for combat fist/dagger rogues. I mean, hands down, flat out, the best. I want you to take a moment to think about that. Go ahead, stand up, take a little walk around wherever you are, grab a drink, maybe something to snack on. Let this fact marinate in your brain juices for awhile: A BoE blue is arguably the second best weapon in the game for rogues of all specs.
Why is it so good? The speed. At 1.3 weapon speed this little baby is wicked fast and, with poisons making up such a large portion of our current DPS, weapon speed is everything. A faster weapon means more poisons, plain and simple.
Is this really a problem? Yes and no. Is it really an issue that the faster a weapon is the better it is? Not really. If that’s how the mechanics are going to work than that’s fine, however, it points out an itemization issue in the fact that we have so few choices of weapons. As of right now, your choice is to get yourself a pair of paper cutters and then wait for a pair of Webbed Deaths. There is kind of a big empty gap of upgrades there.
OK, so it is a problem, how do we fix it? I don’t have a great answer for you there. Wiser minds than I have spent pages and pages discussing this same issue. Some thoughts are to normalize poison damage with weapon speed. Seems reasonable. Others suggest simply giving us a better selection of weapons that are faster. Also seems reasonable.
So what do I hope you take away from this post? My hope is to facilitate discussion among our community about the issues of our class. A lot of us (myself included) are guilty of thinking that Blizzard should just turn up the damage knob on our class and we’ll be set. Maybe we’d be happy, but I don’t think we’d be any less “broken” than we are now.
I don’t have the answers to the current state of rogues but I have faith in Blizzard. I honestly believe that they listen to the community but we need to help them help us by taking a good hard look at ourselves and figuring out not just what we feel is really off about our class but why is it really off.
What do you all think?
Well, they could change the speed of the 5-ish 1.8 speed daggers which are only useful in PvP because of their slow speed (make them faster and lower their damage range), or you could make it so there is more of a balance between two slow daggers=big mutilates and two fast daggers=more poison and energy.
Currently the second vastly outweighs the first.
Obviously making Mutilate hit harder won’t make the PvP people happy (then again they rarely are), and the other option means further nerfing of our DPS.
*the 5-ish 1.8 speed daggers dropping in Naxx
Sorry, forgot to add that part.
up the damage knob and more variety in weapons. im combat swords so i know where im going to be stuck for a while lol.. possibly back to fists if i get that deep into naxx :3
I think they need to turn down the damage nob on everything… PRE lich king nurf, raiding was hard work, it was fullfilling… The game is getting way to easy, and blizzard is getting worse, re using everything, no creativity, and trying to make the game easy for everyone isnt the answer… People raided in this game cause it took skill and hard work, PUGS for godsakes are clearing raids….
As far as rogues being broken? Either they need to balance us out with some REAL AOE, or they need to turn the other players down.. Why bring a Rogue? Virtually every class has CC now….
Very very good points man….In reference to weapon speed though…do you consider 1.6 a considerably slower piece? Because other than webbed death and lpc there is a variety of weps with a 1.6 speed slapped on it….and with haste being a huge proponent of at least how I play, and trinkets (meteorite whetstone) you can easily easily get 1.6 weps down under .5 second speeds at time…….I feel using weapons at 1.6 even 1.8 in main…can still be as damaging or close to 2x lpc..Titansteel shanker is available immediately and very easy to get mats for….(if your a miner lol)
With all this said….bear in mind…if I had to trust the rogue education on one of us….meaning you or I? I’d chose you lol….This is merely my take on and clearly you have probably read into it more and calculated things unforseen to me….
But since wer’e on that topic…I feel rogue’s aren’t “broken” persay….but bent….we need a SPAMMABLE aoe…even 1 will do (fok)…possibly have cold blood crit ALL the hits or something….(that may be a little too much but still) and as far as the rest….I’m fine with our set up….they could maybe equalize sub with mut…and considerably rework combat into a viable backstab spec…but mutilate I’m definately pleased with….just wish the other specs had a chance….NOW….
What the hell I think IS BROKE….is the other classes…..THEY NEED TO SERIOUSLY REWORK DK’S and PALLY’S…In my guild….we have a rogue named lucyford…who is geared for sure….but MORE importantly….(scuse the language) a FUCKING MACHINE….he has perfected mutilate as far as I’m concerned and how I learned about mut I am always one spot below or a couple below him but most of the time Lucy is 1rst in dps with recount calcs almost 6k at times….but many moons…we’ve fell waste to our DK’S and ret pally’s who aren’t as geared AND SURELY not as skilled….both of my dk’s and pally’s are lower level so I’m limited in the terms…but the aoe and raw power of these classes not to mention utility is bogus….put 5 pally’s or dk’s in any instance/ heroic see how they do…..now put 5 rogues in that same instance/heroic….I would even go as far to say…..put 5 rogues in a pvp arena against 5 dk’s or pally’s If they are tanks/healz/ utility…fine. But stay the fuck out of number one spot in raid dps lol..imvho that’s a rogue’s job or another single function dps unit….hunter..mage..etc….not the wonderwoman’s or superman’s of world of warcraft right now….dk’s and pally’s….
NOTICE: I know this was a lot and don’t mean to offend anyone….chances are I’m prolly wrong
so let me know how you feel! sorry for the cussing XD
I’m ashamed to admit this on a website about rogues, but I was in HoL last night with a 79 druid, warrior tank, deathknight and priest, and was coming very close to the bottom of the damage meters, where the druid was.
Granted, I’m still wearing a combination of lvl 70 and lvl 80 epics, but I do two lvl 80 143 dps epic daggers. I’m using the Mutilate/Sub spec which I was told does great damage.
One thing that has become glaringly obvious (which I’m sure you all know) is that rogues are amazingly dependent on their gear to do damage. Especially compared to spell casters.
But I remember being in lvl 70 end game heroics and out-DPSing everyone.
What’s happened to rogues?
Also, has anyone else noticed that the Paladin/DK team combo makes up 40% of the 2v2 arena teams now, and Paladins feature in 7 out of 10 of the most popular 2v2 team combinations. I know this isn’t a Pladin blog, but that’s incredibly imbalanced – Blizzard really messed that one up there, even everyone pointed out to them that was the way Paladins were going back in August.
The problem with rogues is that we have an ms that nerfs healing. Ms makes are dps in pvp suck balls compared to ever other class. MS is great against healing classes but when we fight any class they out dps us by a ton thats why we die so fast. Are moblity is bad against all casters we should have 100% frost resist as a self buff so frost mages have a real counter class. Fear should also not work as well on rogues as it does its hard to kick with a 3 yard range. Maybe if they reduced are MS to 20% then increased are pvp damage to double what it is now less rogues would complain about how broken we are.